Episode #16 - Building a Legacy with Aaron Gordon

In this episode Carey and Lindsay sit down with Aaron Gordon from Gordon Companies Insurance Services to talk all about what Aaron does best, branding! We cover personal brands, company brands and how they fits into his family's multi-generational agency. 

In honor of David Gordon, let us remember to cherish every precious moment together, respect the strong foundation built by those who came before us and keep his spirit alive in our hearts.

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Transcript: 

Lindsay Wallace:

Hey Mom, how you doing?

Carey Wallace:

I am doing fantastic. I gotta tell you, Lindsay, I have been waiting for this day for a little bit. I have lots of friends in this industry. I really do. I have lots of great people that I adore, but today we have a treat. We have the NY risk advisor himself, Mr. Hustle, if you will. We have Aaron Gordon with us and I could not be happier.

Aaron Gordon:

That's like one of the best introductions I've ever gotten. Now I have a lot to live up to. I'm scared, but it's okay. Lindsay, Lindsay help me through it.

Lindsay Wallace:

Well, I'm not the scary one, so.

Aaron Gordon:

That's right.

Aaron Gordon:

You lived with the scary one, whatever.

Carey Wallace:

Listen, I am not a scary - Oh my goodness, how is

Lindsay Wallace:

I came from the scary one.

Carey Wallace:

I just don't understand how I could be scary, Aaron. You have to expand on that, that makes no sense.

Aaron Gordon:

Okay, so here I am. I'm a guy who's got like a decent personality. I also pride myself on really always working and it's hard for me to ever turn off. So earlier this year, I guess it was last year now, right? Cause I don't think it was earlier this year, in the end of 2022, I'm at a mastermind meeting, really amazing couple of days. And I obviously had the wonderful, great, amazing, incredible fortune of having my seat just so. the stars aligned just perfectly that I got two days next to Carey Wallace, which I mean, who wouldn't want that? And so obviously, like as I'm sitting there, I'm a millennial, I'm taking some notes, but I'm on my phone because we're running a business at the same time. And my parents are really big on business development and career aspirations and growing personally and professionally. But like the idea that I would be in a room with a bunch of my, quote unquote, competitors for two days and turn off from work was not something that was going to happen. And then, and then Lindsay, here's what happens, right? Carey gets up and she's like, listen, she looks over, she goes, listen, I've seen you on your phone. You have not given 100% full attention to a single presenter. And I'm presenting. And if you want this to work out, I'm not sure exactly how the threat went down, but there was something in there, there was something aggressive, then you're gonna put down your phone, close your laptop, and you will pay attention. Fine, I do it. I go, do not disturb. I even make a big scene. I close the laptop. I take my phone. I put it upside down with the screen side down. I can't even see it in front of me. Fine, I focus. I laser in. I'm taking notes. In fact, they even asked for a copy of the presentation afterwards. First words out of Carey Wallace's mouth at the end of the presentation. Hey, you take any pictures of videos of me?

Lindsay Wallace:

Ha ha ha!

Carey Wallace:

Hey man!

Aaron Gordon:

You tell me if this is not a setup for failure. You just tell me. What am I, and I shouldn't be scared right now? Just tell me.

Carey Wallace:

Ahhhh,

Lindsay Wallace:

That is classic 

Carey Wallace:

I remember that.

Aaron Gordon:

So that's it. Honesty is the best policy. I'm from New York. That's what you're gonna get. Take a picture of it, sorry and say, hey, by the way, to begin with at the end, you don't mind snapping a couple, but then I got nervous and I pick up my phone, then she, it's a, whatever. It's all good, it's all good.

Lindsay Wallace:

That is very classic Carey. Hey pay attention. Do you take any pictures of me? She's done that to me a million and a half times. Whenever we're at the same conference, she'll do to me, Hey, I don't want you in there. It makes me nervous. But then also, did you get any pictures or videos of me?

Carey Wallace:

Oh man.

Aaron Gordon:

But i digress, We're ready to roll today. I think it is so awesome that as a child of two people in this industry and more importantly as the son of a power woman in the insurance industry, my mother has been doing this for 40 years and she, ask any underwriter, ask any client, she's the best of the best. My dad and I, my daddy, he should rest in peace and I were. We get a little more of the public facing things, but our business is what it is strictly because of my mother. And I think it's incredible to see another generation or my generation of female leaders coming into this business. Obviously we all, we, three of us travel in a very small, intimate group of people circle, and there are some pretty powerful females in that group as well. And it inspires me. I'm always inspired when I just because I know what my mother went through starting in this industry. And obviously, you know, there's always more to be done. But just the idea that this podcast could be here. And obviously, the everybody knows Carey Wallace, because everybody knows that one day they strive to work with her and have her tell them all the things that they did wrong. I think Bradley Flowers says it best. You've both seen both of Walsh, right? For sure, right?

Carey Wallace:

Of course.

Aaron Gordon:

So you know, every once in a while, Bradley will post that great scene when his father comes in and tells him about the expenses. And like, that's literally, everyone's like, huge fear. But Lindsay, to have you here and to be talking to you with your mother is something like, super inspirational to me. And I have four daughters and a son, so. I dream, I guess, of one day one of them coming into the business and the statistical likelihood is that it'll be a female because I have four of those and only one male. So it could be multiple of them, but that's just the likelihood. And yeah, so that's what I would say about being here today.

Carey Wallace:

Well, Aaron, we are thrilled that you're here. And I feel horrible that you're actually intimidated by me. But I guess in a way, I'm a little flattered. I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge that one of your incredible mentors, your father, passed away very, very recently. And I don't know how. You know, I actually called you and said, are you sure you wanna do this podcast? Because I get it. My dad was one of the most important people in my life. I know your dad was one of the most important people in your life as well. And from the bottom of my heart, I want you to know how much I care about you and how sorry I am for your loss, but super excited for you that you got the chance to work with your dad so closely and your mother. You know, I never had that opportunity with my parents and I'm thrilled that Lindsay has chosen to do a project with me like this because it's a really unique situation. So thank you for coming and joining us and sharing some of your story, but please know we both, from the bottom of our hearts, you know, wish you all well and your family well.

Aaron Gordon:

Thank you, I really, really appreciate it. But I think that insurance has always been or historically was and I believe should still be, it was a father to son, but as I mentioned before, I believe that mothers and daughters and nieces and all that should be in the business. And I think that when you enter a business that is intentionally relationship driven and... And we can talk about individuality and things like that as well. But when you, when all parties in the conversation, parent, child, generation one to the next generation kind of see that and understand that there's a lot of value in that legacy, that even if in the back of your mind someone is thinking about legacy, which my father was very cognizant of. My, you know, I came. into the business. My father started our business on December 2nd of 1968. I came on full time on August 1st of 2010. He was doing this a long time before my mother came on in 82 or 83. So when we started, forgetting all the practical sides of insurance and things like that, I think there's something just about when people think a little bit about legacy and the next generation, and that doesn't mean we have to do everything the same, but there's something really special about that. And then you can kind of look back at it and say, maybe we did something. Like maybe the student learned something from the teacher and maybe they could even teach something to the teacher. So I think there's something really special about that.

Carey Wallace:

Is that's the gift, right? Cause I fully believe that the student taught the teacher and the teacher taught the student in your situation. There's no two ways around that. So when.

Aaron Gordon:

I did teach them how to use a computer and how to refill the printer. Yes, I did teach them that. Yes, I get the check on that.

Carey Wallace:

So yeah, I want to talk about one thing, and then we're going to jump into how I even got to know you and what I think of when I think of Aaron Gordon and what I think every agent should be thinking about that. Before we do that, when Lindsay and I were talking about launching a podcast, you were one of the first people to comment because you're a huge supporter and an incredible friend. But you said, at some point, I'd like to tell you about a situation where I tried to create a podcast with my father. I would love to hear that story.

Aaron Gordon:

Sure, so I'm not sure if it was 2016 or 2018, but it was a long time ago. It was before podcasts were really a thing. So I know that I'm the old school guy, but I was onto something. I just didn't execute it. And I kinda, I came up with this idea that my dad and I were gonna have for our 50th anniversary, so it would have been about five years ago, six years ago, we were gonna do 50 podcasts for our 50th anniversary, it was gonna be 50 for 50. What I didn't realize at the time was doing 50 for 50, just the two of us an hour was probably really foolish. And if I could redo it, I wish I could redo it. What I would have done was probably 50 questions. And then that would

Lindsay Wallace:

Hmm.

Aaron Gordon:

have maybe been like, you know, 10 or 20 or 30 or even 12, one a month for that year of, you know, 10 or 15 minute episodes. But there are three up there. It's an Apple podcast. It's called 50 for 50. The first one is really something, I actually listened to it last week. That's why it's a fresh in my mind. It's called The Beginning and it was about my father and I spoke about why we got into this industry and kind of some things with that. And then one was definitely on claims, which is another awesome episode, not to pump my own three episode podcast up. But like some of the best stories that insurance agents have are claim stories. Like there are some really good ones. So we kind of dove into that. And I don't remember what the other one was, but it's on there. That's a little picture of me. I have a picture of the two of us sitting at my father's old desk and we just never got into it. So when I heard that you guys were going to do this, I was pumped because I was like, well, there's one thing that I know about Carey Wallace. If she says she's going to do it, she's going to do it. She's not going to be like Aaron Gordon. Like, I don't know. At the time, I was like, I don't know Lindsay that well, but I'm like, okay, if she's going to do this, like if my mom said that she's like, if my mom and I would have said that we would have done the podcast, my mom would have made sure that it got done. When my dad and I were just, it was just like another. crazy, stupid, quote unquote idea that we were throwing at the wall that, you know, my mother was like, why are you guys not working? So it was kind of like, you know, whatever. But like, so that's why I'm really pumped about this. I love it. I'm a big fan. You've had some really, really incredible guests and to be able to put my name with them is an honor that I don't take lightly.

Carey Wallace:

Well, you can bet I will absolutely listen to those podcasts. And here's what I would tell you, you know, whether it was 50 questions, 50 episodes, you have it, it's memorialized and it's something that, um, you know, I don't think you'll ever regret doing. So anyway, all right, let's jump into it. Lindsay wants to, to tap into the thing that actually I knew of you first. So I don't know if you knew this, Aaron, but I hadn't met you. I had only actually engaged with you online and I actually thought of you as the hustle guy. You know what I mean? Like he's the one that's always saying, let's hustle or like keep hustling, whatever, when I got to know you, that's part of you, but that is something that you've created. So I'd love to, and I know Lindsay has followed you a great deal and she cares deeply about marketing and personal branding. So I'm going to let her jump in and, and really dive into that whole area.

Lindsay Wallace:

Yeah, I mean, as she, she being my mom, gave just a great intro into your personal brand and how important it is to you, anyone that knows you knows of your brand and your hashtag keep hustling. And I actually always

Aaron Gordon:

Hopefully soon to be trademarked.

Lindsay Wallace:

often, oh. I often look to you and your posts as inspiration while I'm working on building my brand. I don't have any strategy or anything outlined. I kind of just am doing it right now. Sometimes you just gotta do it before you put rails around it, but it's intimidating to start building a brand and start putting yourself out there. So I'd love to hear a little bit about why you do it and how you started and what got you into it.

Aaron Gordon:

Sure, so great question, great questions. I think that there's a huge opportunity for individuals to shine in a world that's filled with a lot of outside noise. Now, I could tell you that every once in a while I dream of being that guy who like, you know, is that social media influencer from the insurance industry. I can tell you that in the insurance industry, as far as I know, and... People can certainly comment on the episode if I am wrong, but I do not believe that there is a single member of the PNC insurance industry that has 50,000 Instagram or Twitter or Facebook followers. I don't believe it exists. There are a couple of people on the financial planning life and health side that have a lot, but I don't think in what we focus on, it exists. And I also think that industries that are somewhat bland for lack of a better term in the character of what we do on a data basis. I love... the PNC insurance game. But I also believe that from an outside perspective, people look at us like the people in the suit and ties that come with the portfolios and, you know, we're just going to white shirts and everything's gonna be very, you know, straight and narrow for lack of a better term, which obviously, you know, as I like to say, insurance is a risky business, right? It's a serious, it's a serious deal. But we all have individual personalities. And I think that what actually inspired me to do more of it was I started meeting people out of the New York bubble. So I had this idea, I was like, okay, I'm this small agent, we're a relatively small agency, in a very big pond, and I realized that the worst thing that could happen to me personally, like from an ego perspective, was someone who I knew directly, not knowing what I did. So I'm not, I've gotten over the fact that some people will internet buy, I've gotten over the fact that There are a lot of people that have conflicts of interest in the industry, their brother-in-laws in the insurance industry or anything like that. So let's put those people aside. The absolute worst thing that could happen to Aaron Gordon, the professional, is Lindsay Wallace buys a house and she doesn't choose to work with somebody else or her mortgage broker doesn't tell her to speak to somebody else or her realtor. She doesn't even think Aaron Gordon. So I was like, what I want is when people hear the word insurance. they're gonna think about Aaron. And not even like random people, and I've met people like this because of personal branding, but not even people all the way out there. Just like the people that would see my posts, that would say they know me, that they went to summer camp with me, or they live down my block, or that our kids go to school together, and at least be able to associate the insurance thing. And then I was like, okay, how am I gonna do that? So I just said, I'm just gonna put myself out there, and I have to give credit where credit's due. It really goes to our mutual friend, Bradley Flowers, who was like, I was just telling him that I was like, nobody's gonna care. And his response was, so if you really believe that nobody's gonna care, what's the downside? Like, I've gotten, it's rare, but I've gotten some negative stuff on social media, especially because I'm a very outward Orthodox Jew, and so I've gotten some of that, the way of the world and sentiment, but I appreciate it in that that is how the world is. So we can't live in a bubble and say, everything is gonna be, If we want our outward branding personality and persona to accurately reflect who we really are, then there's positive and there's negative. And there's gonna be people who like it and there are gonna be people who don't like it. And by the way, I'm perfectly fine just to close the circle if someone says, I know that Aaron Gordon does insurance, but I don't wanna work with him because I don't like his persona. Like I would be like, why? I think I'm a pretty fun, nice guy. And like I have a good personality in a business that's very bland, but at least say. He's not the insurance guy that I want to do my insurance. Not he's not the guy. I just want to be the guy who does insurance. So I created NY Risk Advisor because, and this is also really important, I'm very cognizant of the fact that I also represent a brand that is as, even though my mother is a superstar, as you mentioned, it's a very pale, stale, and male brand. You know, insurance agency, last name insurance agency. I have people, mutual friends of ours, ringing in my head that that's not a great idea of a name in this yada, yada, yada. By the way, that's never changing now after. after April 4th, me losing my father. That's definitely not changing. So you all had your chance, but whatever. Anyway, so I was cognizant of the fact that I didn't want to tarnish 50 years of branding or lack of branding for lack, because that's really what it was. And I also had to convince my parents that it was a decent idea. So I said, hey, how about this? I'll create my own brand. It'll be Aaron Gordon and My Risk Advisor. Got the license plates and my risk. They're my real plates. Snap a picture, I'll send you swag. And I said, okay, I'm gonna not be insurance-y. I'm gonna throw in the insurance stuff. I'm gonna kind of latch onto Gordon and companies a little bit. And my... My promise to my parents was, and Carey, I hope that you'll agree with this because you know me better than Lindsay, I promised that I wasn't gonna do anything stupid on the internet. I'm old enough to remember when people didn't get jobs and things like that. I'm also very, I guess, lucky that Facebook didn't exist when I was in high school and in elementary school and in summer camp. But I wasn't gonna do any crazy things. It just wasn't gonna be super-insurancy. So what that allowed me to do... very long answer to your question, Lindsay, I apologize, is like, it allowed me to be much more free because I said, okay, Gordon Company is gonna be the agency it's gonna be that insurance thing, and I'm gonna be Aaron Gordon who represents that brand, and wears that brand very proudly on my chest, but like, I'm gonna wear the like, sports style zip up and not the suit and tie, or I'm gonna wear the baseball cap, or I'm gonna wear the funny shoes. So like, even though I think they're not funny, I think they're great, but like, those things, They don't contradict the brand. There's just a different spin on it. And so that's my view. And I was like, you know, I'm just gonna get out there and do it. And then I've gotten to meet people from it. I haven't like, I mean, I sold one policy off Twitter. One guy stopped me in the airport and said that he recognized me from LinkedIn. So like, that was pretty cool. I'm also an identical twin. So I've had like an inherent identity crisis my entire life. So like, you know, people, whenever I'm walking on the street now, it's like, is that person looking at me funny? Because they're looking at my shoes. Because I think I'm my brother or. Did I really just become a social media influencer and these people like know who I am? So all those things are constantly chirping in my head. So yeah, there you go.

Lindsay Wallace:

I feel like you led me right into the next question I wanted to ask you is like, how do you balance your personal brand with Gordon Company's brand and how do you measure its impact on your agency's growth and success? Do you get clients from your personal brand? How does that work?

Aaron Gordon:

Oh gosh, Lindsay, now you sound like my dad. No, I'm just kidding. My dad would always say to me, what's the ROI on the social media thing? All this media stuff, media, media, media, hats, and oh, we're doing giveaways and all that, like what's the ROI? And yeah,

Carey Wallace:

Your dad was brilliant, by the way. Your dad was brilliant to say that to you. Yes.

Aaron Gordon:

that's true, but it's not fair, and I'll tell you why. And he, ultimately when we had the conversations, like he agreed with me on this, and that is, I am not flow or the gecko or any of those other really irritating avatars. And so what that means is for me to really track an ROI on social media is impossible because I'm not in the click to buy business. In fact, my parents would tell you, my mother still and my father would have told you, that if I started turning those leads from Instagram and it was people clicking on saying, hey, get me an auto quote because my insurance is expiring tomorrow and my insurance is up by $2. they would throw me out because that's just not our value add. But the way I measure the success is the people that are noticing it. And it's still very small, you know? But like the fact that there's like 1200 people that are interested in seeing my Instagram, like I find that pretty crazy. And there's no way to measure, you know, one of the amazing truths that my father really, really drilled into me, and my mother still drills into me is that The most important thing is to be available. And if you're in this business long enough, and you're just available and you do the right thing and you do well by doing good, the clients will come. So I can't tell you why my leads picked up 10X in the last two years. It could be that I crossed the threshold of being in the industry for 10 years, and my friends became business owners and CFOs and controllers and home buyers and things like that. That's certainly part of it. And some of it could be the media personality. But my thing is, very little downside risk. So if I do one thing or by the way if one person makes a referral to our agency and someone just looks us up and finds me and says hey, that's kind of you know, maybe this guy's not the pale, stale, and male guy. Maybe I'll give them the call first. It's really hard to quantify that. It's also really hard to quantify the people that don't walk out the door because you're present. Right? Like, Kari, you're the data queen. You can't quantify that. You

Carey Wallace:

Right.

Aaron Gordon:

can't really, you can't say These people would have gone elsewhere. They would have gone to the internet, but because they saw a post that I did about claims and they're like, hey, I remember when I had a claim 15 years ago and the Gordons were there for me that they didn't shop. So I don't know how to measure the impact. What I can say is I know it hasn't negatively impacted me and therefore it's worth the effort that I put in. Obviously the last couple of weeks I've been a little bit preoccupied, so you probably have noticed that my posting is down, but one post a day doesn't take a lot. And then the whole keep hustling thing, I kind of just fell into it. And I feel like that careers in general are a downward moving escalator and we're walking up it so if you're not moving forward you're gonna be moving backwards and Therefore that's what keep hustling means keep hustling means that in the end of the day The only thing that we can all do when we put our head on the pillow at night It said we put our best foot forward and we're gonna win business and lose it

Carey Wallace:

Well, here's what I would tell you, Aaron. You know, I didn't set out to set a brand. I certainly wasn't as intentional as you were by creating NY Risk Advisor or doing these things, but I think it's really important to some key things that you do very well, because honestly, I knew you online before I knew you in person, and one of it is you're incredibly consistent. But... it's not just insurance. Like if I talked every day just about numbers or just about EBITDA, I think someone made a joke that they sat with me on an airplane and how many times I said EBITDA. Was

Aaron Gordon:

No, that was me. That was me. 

Carey Wallace:

That you? Yeah, exactly. Someone posted a picture that they were sitting next to on the airplane and I said, is it true that Carey says the word eboda 50 times before takeoff and landing. That’s funny! 

Aaron Gordon:

That was me. 

Carey Wallace:

I don't think I ever said that word on that airplane, but my point is if I only talked about EBITDA or you only talked about claims or coverage or whatever, no one gets to know who we are. So it's important to actually put out there who you are because at the end of the day, people do business with the people they know, like, and trust. And it's a way for someone to... to get an idea who few you are. They don't know you, but they know something about you more so than someone who's not putting themselves out there, right?

Aaron Gordon:

Can I say something that's super rewarding and like is really a gut punch to the skeptics? Isn't it, and it's not all the time, but isn't it awesome when you meet someone after you've seen their online persona and it's like exactly what you expected?

Carey Wallace:

Yes.

Aaron Gordon:

Like you like this person because they have like, not much talking about accents because I love that kind of stuff too, but it's like obviously not everyone can be authentic and people struggle with that. And you can tell when people are more nervous, obviously in public than they are in a one-to-one conversation. But like when you go to a conference and you meet one of these people that you've kind of like interacted with online a little bit and it just like slips right back in as if you're old friends or it makes that, it breaks the ice much easier. Like I just, I really hope that authenticity comes through because in the end of the day, not to sound too much like Gary V, but like I think that people like doing business with people. And if there's anything that I'm trying to do being an independent insurance agent advisor in 2023, It's I want people to do business with me. And the way we've been doing this for 50 years because I'm not gonna outspend Amazon and Google and whenever they decide to get into the insurance business, like it's not gonna happen. So I need to beat the internet and the only way to beat the internet is with authenticity, availability and delivAarong on a promise. And that's it. And part of that is in the brand. Part of it is in the brand. When I tell people that when there's a super storm, I'm gonna forward the calls to my house and they're gonna get a picture of me. at one o'clock in the morning at my table answAarong phone calls. And that's not just because it's good for business. That's just because that is like literally what it is and how it is. I like, I just, can I tell you a branding fail of mine? Can we go there on that? 

Carey Wallace:

Yes, please 

Lindsay Wallace:

Mm-hmm.

Aaron Gordon:

So I was coming back from the One City World Tour and I'm on the airplane and I generally, there's a joke that a bunch of us in the industry have and that is we try to race to see who can get the opportunity to quote the person who's sitting next to them on the airplane quicker. And there's a bunch of us that have this running bit like, oh, I'm getting on a plane. Oh, I think I can tell this guy in five minutes. Oh, I think that I can at least get the chance to quote or like, oh, hope we get stuck on the tarmac because this could be a big one. And I was just, I was a little tired. You know, I had a three week old at the time and like I had just gone there. And so I get on the plane flying from Boston to New York and I commit to myself literally to just completely ignore the person who's sitting next to me. So it was gonna be like the guy sat down, I mean the same joke that I always do because I take the window, which is like, I'm really sorry in advance, but I hope my bladder holds up long enough so they don't annoy you too much on the plane. We, and like, the whole time I'm thinking like, I'm literally sitting next to this guy, I haven't even said hello, like I haven't introduced myself, that's so against my personality, like I'm a huge extrovert, like, and then we land in New York and we spend two and a half hours on the tarmac. So much so that... they end up pulling the pilot pulls off the line to get a gate so that they can turn off the seatbelt sign and people can go to the bathroom and then we get back on. As we're getting off the plane, okay, I've now been on this thing for like eight hours, sitting next to one guy, I have literally avoided this guy like the plague. He asks the stewardess for the thing that he put in the closet and it is one of those conference displays in the big black bag 

Lindsay Wallace:

Mm-hmm.

Carey Wallace:

Oh goodness gracious. Oh, Aaron. 

Aaron Gordon:

And I see his business card. And his business card says, P.O.H.S. Now I don't know if you guys know what P.O.H.S. is, but P.O.H.S. here, at least in New York, where I am, is the only continuing insurance education platform that we can go to. For insurance, education, continuing ed. My parents have been going to P.O.H.S. live or online or COVID, whatever, for 60 years.

Lindsay Wallace:

Oh my god.

Aaron Gordon:

I'm sitting next to this guy. So as we're walking off the plane, eight hours, I go, you work for Pose? And he goes, nobody knows what Pose is. I go, my family has been independent insurance agents for 60 years and I went on a rant about one of the teachers, yada yada. And then he goes, my name is so and so. I'm actually the president and my father started the company. And I'm like, we just sat next to each other for eight hours and I failed …

Carey Wallace:

That just goes to show you, you need to be you, my friend.

Aaron Gordon:

and that's what I'm saying. So that's why I'm bringing it up. Is that like, if you're authentic and it doesn't work out financially, it's hard to have regret. But if you aren't you, and it works out, you won't really know why, but if you aren't you, in whatever it is, in person, online, in the products you sell, in the way you sell, and then it doesn't work out or then like you have one of these, that's a silly example of one of those moments, you just like, it's unnecessary regret. Because it was like, I literally just should have, wouldn't it be hilarious if this guy strung me along for eight hours trying to pitch him and then he's like, by the way, like I've been in the insurance business for 60 years. It was hilarious. Then I connected with him on LinkedIn, we were standing by the Uber thing and we had this great conversation, but it was like raining outside and we should have done this for eight hours on the plane when we were both miserable, stuck next to each other.

Carey Wallace:

Ohhh, Aaron

Aaron Gordon:

You know, like I think that that's a good like metaphor for everything that is branding, which is like just be you and it will work out. If it's meant to work out, it will. And if it doesn't, you'll have some pretty hilarious stuff. And by the way, great things for your children and grandchildren. So sorry, long answer again, but that's what I do. I'm from New York.

Lindsay Wallace:

I love the idea of being authentic as a way to build your brand. I think a really hot topic right now is people are afraid, agency owners or managers are afraid to let their employees build a brand because they think they're going to get a name for themselves and they're going to get poached, they're going to leave, or they're going to go do something else. But that's what you should want in an employee, right? Like you should want them to be authentic with your customers who are coming in and like what are your thoughts on employees having a brand and how do you manage that for your employees?

Aaron Gordon:

So first of all, if you are an employee working at any insurance agency or anywhere in the insurance industry and your employer does not allow you to have your own personal brand, call me. I will either take care of you or one of my friends will. But I believe that that's faulty old thinking. And the reason why I believe that is because the best way to create... My father used to had a saying and he's... It took me a while to believe him, but it's really true. And his line was, the way they come in is the way they go out. So if someone comes in, just because you save them a dollar in one moment because they were just shopping, shopping, shopping, you should make the sale, but they're probably gonna leave. But if someone gets to know you, likes the way we're doing business, takes the time to say, I understand that it might cost more, you may save me money, it may take five years for you to save me money, et cetera, et cetera. but you and what you represent is the person that I wanna do business with. Longer sales process, but much more glue. And I think that if employers are worried about their employees creating a personal brand and leaving, and by the way, it's very present with producers. Forget about like back office, it's very present, then they're going to leave anyway. It's over, you've lost, you've lost. If I'm... The only reason why I'm not creating a personal brand is because I'm worried that you're gonna fire me or somewhere in my contract is I can't have my personal brand. They're already interviewing elsewhere. And so for me, it's like, I want you to create the greatest personal brand in the world because as you're creating your personal brand, you're gonna grow. Might you leave and start your own agency? Sure, we've had that. We've had producers that have left and started their own agencies. And you know what my father's rule is? We don't believe in non-competes. I will literally, if you decide tomorrow, we'll have a conversation. I will tell you why I think it's a good idea or not a good idea. I will also let you in on all the ridiculously annoying admin burdens that come with owning an insurance agency. When you just get to go out there and sell and do what you love and earn a commission, we'll do that. And the day you want to leave, I will literally sign away your book to whichever Careyrs you get appointed with because it all goes back to personal brand. If I hold you to your non-compete, if it's one, two, three, four, five years, I don't care if it's 10 years, but the average non-compete is two years. for your mother, Carey, and I hold you to an oncopy. If you were really good and you really did everything that I believe in in this business, which is create a lot of glue and create a relationship with your clients, then for exactly two years, they're going to be miserable and I am going to be miserable. And exactly two years and one day later, they're going to leave. And so,

Lindsay Wallace:

Right.

Aaron Gordon:

and they should leave because you've done what, you've created that brand. So I'd rather just, there's not enough revenue in that tail cycle for it to be worth the client not being happy because I don't want unhappy clients. Now, I can tell you that nine times out of 10, people don't end, if you actually give them the freedom, they actually don't leave. Because they realize how great it is to just do what they're doing and that's where they've seen their success and they don't have to worry about making payroll or sick days or office rents or all that. I think it's just short-sighted and foolish.

Carey Wallace:

And the other part to that is, you know, here's the, here's a thing. If you give someone the ability to create this relationship and trust and you support it, why are they trying to leave? You know, do that, create a pathway to ownership. Like they're helping you build your business. That should be embraced and celebrated. We are in a relationship business. And I think we forget sometimes that we're in a relationship business. So if someone shows the initiative to create a way for people to feel trust with them, it's countAarontuitive to the industry we're in. Like that's, that's the problem.

Aaron Gordon:

And by the way, what I would say, just one caveat is, obviously if the person is toxic on the internet, I actually wanna know that, because having none to do with their personal brand on the internet, I don't want them working with me. I don't want them

Lindsay Wallace:

Right.

Aaron Gordon:

representing my brand, whether they have their own brand or whether they're representing my brand. So let them go out, if they do something on the internet, and again, I'm not talking about just things that I'm not into, but those things that are just toxic and embarrassing and immature, then I... whether you have your own personal brand or not, I don't want you working with me. This is not the fit. As I said, we take what we do very seriously. So by them having the brand, I'm gonna learn very quickly what that is.

Carey Wallace:

Yeah. And so are their customers. Everyone's going to know who they are because at the end of the day, if you're consistent out there, you're going to be yourself eventually. Like even if you started in a way that wasn't authentic, eventually you're going to show who you are because that's human nature, right?

Aaron Gordon:

You have to, 100%

Carey Wallace:

So yeah, of course. Yeah.

Aaron Gordon:

100%.

Carey Wallace:

So here's the thing you mentioned two things that I'm going to touch on quickly. Cause you, you got an incredible strong personal brand. I think any agency owner out there or anybody inside an agency that's thinking about, hey, I'd like to do this and I don't know how, or I don't know where to start. Hopefully they've listened to your story and they've thought about it and really weighed what's the upside, what's the downside. Start, be yourself, tell your story, be consistent, and you will start to see that people follow. But you mentioned another thing. You mentioned the last name agency and you also said it's never going to change for you. We have a mutual friend that actually speaks on stage about why you shouldn't have a last name agency, which I love and adore her. I would love to hear your thought on that, because the reality is, Aaron, 72% of independent insurance agencies are family-owned.

Aaron Gordon:

Here she goes with the statistics, Lindsay. Here she goes, here she goes, 72.3%. Like, by the way, the reason why we got into the insurance industry is because we all failed statistics. Okay, so you don't have to just like ram it down our throat that we're so terrible at this, that we're terrible at statistics. I'll believe you, you can just say most. Now I'm just messing with you.

Carey Wallace:

Hahaha

Aaron Gordon:

I think that, I think that, here's what I would say. That, well, that spun out really quickly. Well, anyway, here's what I would say. I think that. Um, it's not for everyone. I think that if you represent something and when you have, I don't know if I was starting from scratch, if I would choose I, David Gordon Associates, and DBA Gordon Companies, but, but when there's something there, I think that people should be really cautious of saying that everything that existed before them. And my father has a great story, um, that when he was early on in his career, he went to see a client of his who owned a hardware store. And the guy's son was interning there for the summer. And he was, I guess he was doing some fact finding, he asked the guy about inventory or sales or something for business interruption, whatever it was. And the guy said, oh, let me, I need to think about that or whatever. And the son came in and was like, you see, you don't have an inventory list. You don't know about this, you don't know about that. Your insurance guy comes in. and you can tell them this and that, and then how do you run a business, and you need to have files and colors, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the guy looks at the son right in the face and goes, done pretty well for yourself. College education, summer camp, vacations, all that. So I think that people who get rid of that, right? So my thing about the Last Day Materials Agency is that it means a lot to me, and it means a lot to our customers. And I'm super focused on the fact. that the reason why I can spend time personal branding and talking to amazing people like Carey and Lindsay is because my parents spent 50 years building this business. And since I've worked in this, and I thought about this a lot since losing my father, is like, I've never actually worried about payroll and rent. Because, but I can tell you this, like the rubber band ball that's sitting behind me, my father built this business. And then when my mother came in, she joined him, one policy hold at a time. And there were times when they were worried about making rent. Now, based on just standard practice of the way the business goes, you know, when you're around for 50 years, you're probably in the clear with that unless things go south really quickly. But like, I don't know, I'm cognizant of the fact that those are the people that built this. And what I would say to the people that don't like last name insurance agency is I think that generic random names that there are a billion insurance agencies that have are far worse than the last name of the community. Like Sterling. not people whose last name is Sterling. Like, you know, Sterling risk or protective or whatever. You know, like those, I think that those are just super generic and you go down Main Street USA, but then again, that's how this industry was built. Probably like a bunch of mama pop shops hanging out, you know, down places like that. And I think that when people lose that, you lose that authenticity. So I'm not, again, I'm not knocking people that say that it's not a good idea. I'm just saying, you can't delete your history. And I think that being cognizant and understanding that the shoulders that I'm standing on right now is that name and that there's real value in it. And that I, you know, obviously now I'm feeling more sentimental about it, but like, you know, there's something to it. And by the way, that means that there was someone, you know, hopefully one day, if and when my kids come into this business, I'm gonna tell them that there was some person. who you probably remember, maybe you do, maybe you don't, depending on which one of my kids it is, that you had a grandfather who literally put his name on the door and had to stand behind it. Like you can't hide. When you're the guy or gal and it's your name, I, David Gordon, was my father. I, David Gordon, Associates Inc., he started with one customer. There's no hiding behind that. I can say, oh, that was my dad. If I wanted to, you'd never like, you'd have that moment. He couldn't do that. Like that takes real shoulders and like real guts and real drive. And so, yeah, I'm going to keep that last name insurance agency.

Carey Wallace:

Well, I can tell you this, Aaron, I didn't know your dad. I totally wish I did know your dad. I kind of feel like I have, because I've talked, I mean, you've talked about your dad from the moment we've met each other, but I can tell you there's no question, your passion and your love of the business that he started and the legacy he's created is unmistakable. Anybody who knows you knows that you're gonna... knock it out of the park and make it a thousand times better than he did and live up to that legacy without question.

Aaron Gordon:

I can tell you one thing, he didn't know what the word EBITA was until he was in the business for 55 years. But you know what, it gets into that whole luxury thing where it's like, yeah, you know, son, I didn't have time to worry about the fact that our folders were a different shade of blue than our logo. I was worried about selling insurance and like handling claims. Oh, it must be nice that you can, at 459, worry about exactly the hue of blue. that's on your shoelaces to match our logo. Like, oh, maybe you should sell another policy or something like that. I think that there's definitely something to that in that, you know, who am I to not gonna give me a great life, my kid's a great life, my mother, my father, my siblings. So, I mean, as you said, the one thing that I will echo is I love this business. Man, every time I hate it, it's like, it just sucks you back in. And

Carey Wallace:

Yeah.

Aaron Gordon:

there's just such great things. And what I've learned, in the last three weeks is that we have some amazing friends and we have an amazing industry and everybody, there is enough business, my father says all the time, there's enough business for all of us to be really successful and not be in a business where we have to knock each other, the good people I mean, you know, knock each other and steal one from each other or claw business away or being, you just don't have to, just be a decent person,

Carey Wallace:

I agree.

Aaron Gordon:

care, and you don't need to be that smart, no offense to. the smart people in this hall, but like, you know, you don't even have to be that smart.

Carey Wallace:

Nope, you got to be authentic is what's important. You have to be trustworthy, you have to be authentic, you have to be present, and you're all those things, Aaron, without question.

Aaron Gordon:

Availability, affability, and ability in that order my father used to say the three is availability, affability, and ability. Ability is the least important of the three. Don't ask me what affability means, but I know what availability means.

Lindsay Wallace:

Hahaha.

Carey Wallace:

Well, Aaron, thank you so much for coming on and joining us. It's always a pleasure. I hope that when we're at the next meeting, we sit next to each other and you're not intimidated this time, like give me a break.

Aaron Gordon:

No, Lindsay's gonna sit between us.

Carey Wallace: 

Anyway, but thank you so much for coming on and joining us. I look forward to seeing you very, very soon.

Aaron Gordon:

You guys are great. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.